tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5783292903610393457.post1770256151931316686..comments2023-07-21T10:31:43.597-05:00Comments on Woven Words and Thoughts : Considering the Early Church Fathers.jdanbarneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12993869823457055322noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5783292903610393457.post-42456322184294684382009-04-02T09:28:00.000-05:002009-04-02T09:28:00.000-05:00I do agree with this point:"I just don't think its...I do agree with this point:<BR/><BR/>"I just don't think its right that one should use the Bible to prove that they are any more smart than the average Christian and I find that theology seems to be a very large gateway to that very thing"<BR/><BR/>But I think the resurgence of theological interests among younger evangelicals is moving outside of the individualistic concept into the community and meta-dialogue narrative, which by it's very virtue makes it less argumentative and decisive. I think your statement was more true 10 to 20 years ago than it is today, at least in my observations.jdanbarneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12993869823457055322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5783292903610393457.post-11708787804506439592009-04-02T08:06:00.000-05:002009-04-02T08:06:00.000-05:00No need to apologies, it's just a blog. I have he...No need to apologies, it's just a blog. I have heard your argument before, and I am sorry that at some point someone used theology as a weapon against you. I have written about your point in earlier blogs, because I am terrified of your opinion. We have put theology farther and farther aside, and I fear the church is close to destruction as a result. It has nothing to do with intellect and everything to do with how we read and process information.<BR/><BR/>There is no way that I, as a young, American born and raised Christian can simply read the Bible and not superimpose my western ideals on it. That, in my view, is why God gives us great men to learn from. We read and study theology because the Body of Christ is not limited to those who are alive on this earth. It extends to those who have lived and gone before us.<BR/><BR/>To say that Theology, that being the Study of God, has no place in reading and studying the Bible, I think that is cancer in the American church, but you are not alone. Now I have heard people say "people just read the Bible to find ammo to put into their worldview, and find things to argue about" which I agree with. I wrote a blog about that at some point, I think there is a shift in the purpose of Theological study from Trailing Edge Boomers and Builders. I don't read and study Theology as a weapon, but as a safe guard.<BR/><BR/>My issue with your argument is that men from John Piper to Joel Olsten read the Bible. Rick Warren and Brian McLaren both read the Bible. My LDS and JW friends read the Bible. Our interpretations, our belief systems are totally different. Who is right? I don't know you or your belief system or your theology, so you may say "well, they are all right". I can't agree, I believe there are many heresies out there, have been for 2,000 years. I love my LDS friends, but I have concern that their theology of salvation by works (even if they don’t’ call it that) is contrary to scripture. That is why we need Theology. To protect from Arianism, Gnostism, Pelagianism, and much of the 21st century heresy that comes along.<BR/><BR/>My brother, in this area, we have to agree to TOTALLY disagree. I don't think a person should study the Bible without learning and holding to a study of God, which is what Theology is.jdanbarneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12993869823457055322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5783292903610393457.post-5719206034296700652009-04-01T22:39:00.000-05:002009-04-01T22:39:00.000-05:00I'm sorry Pastor, I did not mean to come to your b...I'm sorry Pastor, I did not mean to come to your blog to argue with you- if that's what you're thinking. And I probably carried my point too far.<BR/><BR/>I came to discuss the point that intellectualism and theology are invalid points and should be put away when one is studying the Bible.<BR/><BR/>Although I think you misunderstand me; You say I condemn intellect. Not so, not entirely. A person possessing a vast amount of intelligence is a wonderful thing, I just don't think its right that one should use the Bible to prove that they are any more smart than the average Christian and I find that theology seems to be a very large gateway to that very thing.<BR/>In my original post I should have expanded on my question, explaining it entirely so that we would not have this misunderstanding.<BR/><BR/>And it doesn't really matter who's the pot and who's the kettle, because really: I'm as black as sin. :)HardLessons101https://www.blogger.com/profile/08671418175539179496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5783292903610393457.post-45702774778665445032009-04-01T17:37:00.000-05:002009-04-01T17:37:00.000-05:00Here is the irony. First, intellectualism is your...Here is the irony. First, intellectualism is your word, not mine, it was brought up in your post. Second, you are using intellectualism in a logical, greko-style argument from the Enlightenment to condemn the very process in which you are using. So, you came to my blog to argue with me that arguments are invalid.<BR/><BR/>You bested me in the debate, which shows signs that you are using the Bible at a text to best me in an intellectual debate. The entire argument is hypocrisy. How can you use the Bible and intellect to condemn using the Bible and intellect for the very thing you are doing? Do I think you are wrong, partially. I think you are partially wrong in your exegesis of 1 Cor. but I am not going to convince you any more than you are going to convince me. More over, I think your motives are wrong.<BR/><BR/>If words are interchangeable in my vocabulary, it would make it more narrow, not larger. It is when we begin to separate words by differentiating between then and use them properly that we expand our vocabulary. <BR/><BR/>So, my only question is, who are we talking about, me or you? Which one of us is the pot and which one of us is the kettle?jdanbarneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12993869823457055322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5783292903610393457.post-4325199569270763762009-04-01T17:01:00.000-05:002009-04-01T17:01:00.000-05:00You're taking that verse in 1st Corinthians out of...You're taking that verse in 1st Corinthians out of context, before Paul writes that he put childish ways behind him he explains the perfection of Love (God) and how as a child he did not see how flawed man was... "but where there are prophecies they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophecy in part; but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man I put childish ways behind me. Now we see the poor reflection as in a mirror; then we will see it face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."<BR/>Its symbolism for becoming aware of God. <BR/>Now, as man, we have finite minds and thus can not comprehend the true Glory of God. But when God comes we shall see him fully.<BR/>Much like a small child can not understand multiplication- a man can because he has grown.<BR/><BR/>Wisdom and Intellectualism are two different things- not interchangeable in someone's large vocabulary.<BR/><BR/>Wisdom (as found on dictionary.com)- the quality or state of being wise; knowledge of what is true or right coupled with just judgment as to action; sagacity, discernment, or insight. <BR/><BR/>Intellectualism (as found on dictionary.com)- 1. devotion to intellectual pursuits.<BR/>2. the exercise of the intellect.<BR/>3. excessive emphasis on abstract or intellectual matters, esp. with a lack of proper consideration for emotions.<BR/>4. Philosophy.<BR/>a. the doctrine that knowledge is wholly or chiefly derived from pure reason.<BR/>b. the belief that reason is the final principle of reality.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Therefore we are called to grow in wisdom by studying the word of God- not to get trapped in a theological debate in which the Bible is a mere reason for exercising your superior intellect.HardLessons101https://www.blogger.com/profile/08671418175539179496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5783292903610393457.post-14883279121101992042009-03-31T21:18:00.000-05:002009-03-31T21:18:00.000-05:00Hardlessons, This is why we have the entire ca...Hardlessons,<BR/> This is why we have the entire cannon of scripture. I find it interesting that you started with post with the indigence of Christ. He was indignant about the treatment of children. When we come to Christ, we come with faith, simple and pure faith like a child, yet we are not encouraged to stay there. 1 Corinthians 13:11 tells us that Paul puts away childish things. The context is love, learning to love and about love. We see dimly, but one day we will know as we are known, it's a process.<BR/><BR/>So to answer you question, intellectualism doesn't fit into Mark 9:14-15, but if we limit ourselves to one verse of the Bible, and condemn systematic thinking based upon this dialogue, we deceive ourselves. Luke 2:52 says that Jesus grew in wisdom.<BR/><BR/>If intellectualism was bad, would be approve of the Bereans? Would would approve of the early church being focused on study of the word? Would we be commanded to grow in grace and knowledge? Perhaps we should consider the whole cannon of scripture, and not a few choice sayings of Christ that fit our ideals.jdanbarneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12993869823457055322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5783292903610393457.post-37769966736202752012009-03-31T17:38:00.000-05:002009-03-31T17:38:00.000-05:00Mark 9:14-15When Jesus saw this he was indignant. ...Mark 9:14-15<BR/>When Jesus saw this he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."<BR/><BR/>Here is my question: Where does intellectualism fit in that verse?HardLessons101https://www.blogger.com/profile/08671418175539179496noreply@blogger.com